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Complete Basayev interview, with comments from ANS |
ANS TV, Baku, in Azeri |
25-07-2000 |
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Azeri TV broadcasts full interview with Chechen commander Private Azeri TV company ANS has broadcast in full an interview with Chechen field commander Shamil Basayev, despite an earlier warning from the Azeri Prosecutor-General's Office not to do so. ANS TV chief Vahid Mustafayev, whose commentary was interspersed throughout the interview, said that the head of the Azerbaijani Presidential Executive Staff, Ali Hasanov, had had the courage to acknowledge that Russian special services were putting pressure on Azerbaijan over the interview. Mustafayev said that Russia wanted to seize power in Azerbaijan and throughout the Caucasus but that it realized it was losing its options in Azerbaijan. Interviewed in an unidentified location, Shamil Basayev said that the situation was now "positive" amongst the Chechen mojahedin. He said that 30-40 Russians were killed a day on average while 1,800 mojahedin had died since the start of the current war. He said that the war would continue until the Caucasus was free and the Russian empire destroyed. Although the mojahedin were not campaigning to raise funds, Basayev that they did receive money from individuals around the world. He said expenditure was low as the Chechens seized or bought most of their weapons from the Russian forces. Basayev said that all the people who had been involved in kidnapping in Chechnya had now gone over to the Russian side. Asked whether he watched TV, Basayev said that he only watched football and that Turkey had lost at the Euro 2000 tournament because of anti-Muslim sentiment. The following is the text of the report by ANS on 19th July [Presenter in the studio] Good evening, you are watching the "Point of View" programme. The republic's Prosecutor-General's Office has accused ANS TV and radio company of propagandizing war, violence and cruelty. The reason was the partial broadcasting of the interview with the Chechen field commander, Shamil Basayev, in the "Frank Conversation" programme. We are presenting to you "Point of View" with the head of the ANS TV and radio company, Vahid Mustafayev. At first, a short round-up of recent reports. [Reporter over a round-up of events shown on the screen] June-July 2000 ANS reporters Elchin Hasanov and Azer Muradov interviewed Chechen President Alsan Maskhadov and field commander Shamil Basayev. 14th July: ANS's power was cut during the broadcasting of the interview with Shamil Basayev. 15th July: The Azerbaijani Prosecutor-General's Office sends a letter of warning to ANS accusing it of violating the law. 16th July: The foreign and national security ministries say that Russia did not exert any pressure about the programme. 17th July: The head of the public and political department of the Presidential Executive Staff, Ali Hasanov, states that Russia demanded that the programme should not be broadcast 17th July: The head of the ANS independent TV and radio company, Vahid Mustafayev, issues a statement replying to the warning letter. 18th July: An independent political scientist, Vafa Guluzade, states [on ANS's "Point of View" programme] that Russia is interfering in Azerbaijan's internal affairs. [Presenter] Welcome, Vahid muallim [form of address]. [Vahid Mustafayev, speaking in Azeri throughout] Good evening. [Subhead] ANS head contrasts Azerbaijani objectivity with Russian propaganda [Presenter] For what reason did ANS send reporters to Chechnya_ [Mustafayev] We are journalists. Journalism in ANS differs by 180 degrees from the journalism of the former Russian empire and the Soviet empire. As you will recall, that was propaganda journalism, and now this style is continuing. A number of Russian channels are still engaged in propaganda, Azerbaijan's journalism is a little ahead. Today we really are engaged in independent journalism. The main value of independent journalism is informing viewers about the views of both sides in a conflict. We have always done our job in this way. When we cover even a trivial dispute in our "Domestic News" programmes, we try to create equal conditions for both sides to express their views. This is the main principle of ANS. Objectivity, impartiality and accuracy are our main principles. You know that there are three Russian channels which broadcast in Azerbaijan. These three channels are carrying out major propaganda here. We recently came across a terrible thing here. Our reporters conducted a short opinion poll amongst our elementary school children in Russian-speaking schools. When they were asked who the Chechens are, the Russian-speaking schoolchildren said that they are terrorists. We were shocked. We realized that Azerbaijani viewers are under the influence of this propaganda and do not have information from the other side of the conflict, the people blame one side and defend the other. This is the result of Russian propaganda. This is why we sent our reporters to Chechnya. We sent Elchin Hasanov and Azer Muradov there. They stayed there for 40 days and bribed their way into Chechnya. As I said before, unlike the Russian federal forces, they managed to meet both Shamil Basayev and Aslan Maskhadov and interviewed them and returned home to Azerbaijan safely. I think that Russia is being so sensitive because the whole world has already realized that Russia's special services and Russia's border forces will do anything for money today and there is no need to say that some terrorist forces come to Chechnya from Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan supports them. Corruption is raging today. Everything was settled thanks to money, on the way there and back. Thus, we brought the objective view of a second party. At last, our viewers will be able to watch this interview - the cause of so much suffering - with the field commander, Shamil Basayev. I am personally presenting this interview to you in full, but dividing it into segments. I would like to ask employees of the prosecutor's office, the National Security Ministry and the electricity system, as they sometimes work together, to watch this interview carefully. They must see that this interview is really useful for Azerbaijani citizens, more so than for Chechen citizens. Let us see the situation in Chechnya. |
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Basayev says war in Chechnya going well for his side [Shamil Basayev, shown in a dark room, seated on the floor at low table in front of a wall hanging with the Arabic inscription Allahu Akbar on it. He speaks in Russian throughout] In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate! Thank God that he created us as Muslims and gave us his mercy, and jihad on his direct path. At the moment, one can assess the situation as positive for us and there is even a trend towards increasing resistance against the Russian occupiers and an overall enthusiasm for the national and liberation movement. Today, about 30-50 attacks are being launched against the Russian occupiers every day. Every day about 30-40 occupiers die here and, on average, the same number of occupiers are wounded. Every day five to 10 pieces of military hardware are also destroyed. In March we switched to guerrilla warfare and we are destroying about five helicopters every month. Now I can assess today's situation as positive. At present there is an influx of new young mojahedin. Many mojahedin, who went home in February, a difficult month for us, are already coming back to the ranks. There is a great upsurge of self-awareness amongst the people as well. This shows that we are on the right path and that our affairs are going successfully, mashallah [thank God]! Living conditions basic, but good for guerrilla warfare [Reporter] In general, we are speaking quietly, under what conditions are you now living_ [Basayev] Speaking about me personally, I have spent practically all my time in forests, we in fact have bases throughout the republic. I personally have to be in a makeshift shelter in the forest almost all the time. This is not because I do not have the chance to be somewhere in a village, but only because the Russians are firing at villages blindly, at random. This is especially because I do not want them to know my whereabouts, and in order not to deprive them of the excuse to kill civilians under the pretext that I, or anyone else, is present in a village. This is one side of the issue, and secondly, this allows us to be more mobile and saves us time and energy. We can direct our energies today to the war and to military efforts to liberate our motherland from the Russian occupiers. We have more free time when we are indirectly amongst the mojahedin in mountains and forests. There are more problems when we are in a village, we have less scope and opportunity for manoeuvre. [Reporter] How many hours per day do you actually sleep now_ [Basayev] I have no permanent schedule. I sleep as long as I can [smiling]. But as many say, sleeping three or four hours, I do not have this. I can sleep 12 hours, eight hours or two hours. It depends on how necessary it is. Russia better prepared for second Chechen war [Reporter] What is the difference between the first Chechen liberation war and the second_ [Basayev] There is a great difference. First of all, the Russians have prepared for this war, I could say, fundamentally. And throughout the three years that they have been signing agreements with our leadership, they have been preparing for this war - since 1996. Their behaviour and everything they have done during this time shows this and the course of the war itself shows that they have prepared very thoroughly. We, to be honest, entered this war weaker than we were in the previous war. Because the Russians managed to split us badly or well, they managed to disperse our forces and, if this war had not started, we would have had a civil war. The Russians worked very well in this sense. But there are no other special differences. The only thing is that the Russians have imposed censorship on all information about this war, and very thoroughly too. This is further proof that they have prepared well. And, more cynically and impudently, they are staking everything on it and have brought all their agents and, as it were, reserve players to the fore. In practice, they are now staking everything they have. But they bomb villages and exterminate civilians in the same impudent way as before and, at every opportunity, they use any force necessary. This war is also different because the same world community is trying less than before to stop this and intervene. Even the journalists trying to come here are fewer in number. There is an explanation for this. The main thing is that we proclaimed the Islamic Republic of Ichkeria in February last year. That is the sole point and there are no other reasons. Today the West is also engaged in a concert, raising weak voices to stop this war and something along those lines. In doing so, they are trying to deceive the Muslims of the world that they want to do something. In fact, they are feeding Russia and bankrolling this war as was the case last time. Russian "divide and rule" policy pays off in Caucasus [Presenter in the studio] Vahid muallim, do you think, incidentally, that the fact that the interview was not allowed to be broadcast, was aimed at setting Azerbaijani citizens against each other. [Mustafayev] I do not think so. The fact is that there might be other political reasons. For example, as you see there are some high-ranking officials in Azerbaijan who dance to Russia's tune and our state officials say that the tapes were smuggled. What does this mean_ Firstly, it means that Russia wants to close its borders with Azerbaijan. Russia wants to introduce a visa requirement. We are being accused of terrorism. What does all this mean_ This means that they want to prove to the Azerbaijani people, through the means at their disposal in Azerbaijan, that the Chechen people are terrorists and they want to distance us from them. Generally speaking, every empire, including the Russian empire, pursues a policy of divide and rule. As the Russians themselves say: [in Russian] divide and rule. They want to divide and split the Caucasus, and then take total power. We heard it in Mr Basayev's interview when he says that they set us against each other and even went so far as preparing a civil war in order to make it easy to split us. Remember the time of our war, the Azerbaijani-Armenian war. We have the same situation. Russia's special services set all the forces in Azerbaijan against each other, made them struggle and fight each other and, in this way, Russia made Azerbaijan totally weak. By helping Armenia, it had 20 per cent of our land occupied. Remember this. When political conflicts were under way here, there was absolute silence in Armenia. Given that, they did not need anything else. It was this scenario and these tactics which were used again in Chechnya. But they failed to carry out their plans, perhaps because the Chechen people are simply fewer in number or there might be other reasons for that. However, when we think about [head of pro-Moscow Chechen administration; Mufti Akhmad] Kadyrov and [Kadyrov's deputy, Beslan] Gantamirov, we can see that the Russian special services are succeeding in this too. Basayev too underlined Russia's actions in the Caucasus, the principle of sowing enmity among the people and taking power. Let us listen again. This section is very interesting. |
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Incursion into Dagestan to help Muslims there [Basayev] The main reason is that we want to live freely and independently of Russia and the Russian empire. This is also a reason. [Reporter] As we know, the second Chechen war started after the forces you led entered Dagestan, i.e. Russia presented this as if they were allegedly liberating Dagestan. What was the reason for your entering Dagestan, after which the situation developed in this way. I mean they, the Russian side, are talking about this now. [Basayev] This is dead information prepared in advance. They used this, given that they have the mass media in their hands. I would also say that this is not a second Chechen war. This war has been going on for 400 years now. I could say that this war is the 50th or 100th war. They are trying to portray our entry into Dagestan as a terrorist act or something like that. Today we have no opportunity to fully prove or argue our point of view via the media, or to present it to anyone. But we did not violate any international norms or rules. And, especially, we did not break Sharia'h [law]. We helped first in Tsumadinskiy District [of Dagestan] when they were exterminating the Muslims there. We were asked to help and we came to their aid. We entered Botlikhskiy District [of Dagestan] and cut off the road leading to Tsumadinskiy District. As a result, we forced the Russian aggressors to lift their encirclement because we had already surrounded them. We did not even take Botlikh, although we could have done so. We had no such objective. On the second day when the blockade of these Dagestanis was lifted, we managed to get away from there. We left Dagestani territory on the second day and this is very telling. When we entered Novolakskiy District for the second time, the same thing happened. They started brazenly exterminating civilians in Karamakhi. Both the first and second time, we appealed on behalf of the Majlis of Muslims of Ichkeria and Dagestan to the Russian government and its Dagestani puppets to stop the bloodshed. At le ast, we asked them to give us a chance to take women, children and the elderly out of Karamakhi. There were about 1,000 children and about 600 women and elderly people. But they did not even consider this and we entered Novolakskiy District for the second time. We fought only Russian troops in both cases. We attracted certain forces to ourselves and, in doing so, we created the opportunity to save women and children, and many mojahedin also left that place safe and sound. Russian campaign in Caucasus premeditated, not response to Dagestan Of course, we can say that in doing so, we endangered, so to speak, the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and gave Russia a chance to attack us again. But they only said this, facts show the opposite. Facts have shown that last autumn there would have been a war in any case and under any pretext - either a civil war or Russia would have entered here because they were preparing for elections. Back in June we caught about 58 people who were agents of Russia's FSS [Federal Security Service] and from the state intelligence department. They said that on 15th August they planned a large programme to murder our leaders and also destabilize the situation. They also worked on organizing a civil war. From March-April 1999, Shelkovskiy and Naurskiy Districts were constantly subjected to artillery bombardments under the pretext that people were allegedly attacking them from there. Although they conducted mopping-up operations in the lowlands, it was not convenient to attack from there. We might as well attack them from the mountains. The situation was aggravated in order to carry out the attack in the autumn. Then in May the Russians seized our customs checkpoint in Kizlyar, a kilometre-wide strip of land. They killed two customs officials during the attack. There is a village, (_Kinakhi), in the mountains not far from it, about 15km from there. They occupied the village and deployed their troops there. They constantly organized provocative actions. One more important fact are military maps, which we are seizing today during combat actions from Russian officers, changes carried out in 1998 and 1999 can be found on these maps. These maps include all the new buildings, new pathways, especially roads, they even show how many houses were built in each village, and these changes are drawn in blue ink. It turned out that they prepared themselves for this long ago. Russian pressure stopped ANS broadcast [Presenter] The Chechens are being accused of terrorism, kidnappings, bombings in different cities and of various wrongdoings of this kind. Vahid muallim, do you believe that the Prosecutor's Office of Azerbaijan had this in mind when condemning ANS for propagating terrorism_ [Mustafayev] The Russian special services exerted pressure on the Prosecutor's Office of Azerbaijan, and they issued us this warning on the basis of this. Let us stop this here. Today, there was only one person in Azerbaijan, in the government, a respected person, only one person who really had the courage to say this. This person was Ali Hasanov from the Presidential Executive Staff [head of the public and political department]. He said that pressure had really been exerted on us from Russia in this respect. They did not allow us to broadcast Basayev. I want to say that we should finish this issue here. If someone does not have the guts to say that pressure was really exerted on them, this does not mean that this is not true. You know, history is a wonderful thing. Everything finds its place in its own time and everyone answers for his or her deeds. As [the late Azerbaijani journalist, brother of Vahid Mustafayev] Chingiz Mustafayev said in his programme - nothing and no-one will be forgotten. Therefore, we exist and we will exist with the help of God and our nation. Russia, not Chechens behind bombings that triggered war As for what you said, you know, our people are also unaware of this. Generally, there is a presumption of innocence. Not a single Chechen mojahed has been brought to court in any country, including Azerbaijan, for blowing up a house, committing a terrorist act or kidnapping. Therefore, according to this presumption of innocent until proven guilty, no-one can say that they did these things. Second, you know that several Chechens are in the hands of the Russians, in Russian cells and prisons. Nevertheless, they have not stood before a court either. This is really an interesting issue. As for blasting those buildings, you know perfectly well who needed this. When Russia waged war against Germany, when the Soviet state was at war with Germany in 1941-45, you must remember that the Russian NKVD [Stalin's secret police] itself burnt Katyn in order to show to the whole world how brutal the fascists and the Germans were. It was true that the fascists and Germans were brutal, but this old trick could have been repeated today as well. Russia's own media reports said that this was done by the NKVD, this was revealed from the KGB's archives. You know, I do not think that the Chechen mojahedin are stupid. I do not think so because at least they are opposing a big state such as Russia today and they can have their word. This is the first thing. Second, if the Chechen people wanted to use force against the Russian people, if they wanted to declare something to them - you know that tens and hundreds of houses are being built in Russia, as is the case in Azerbaijan, they are empty and consist of a frame, no-one lives in them - they could bomb these empty houses and say that we had bombed these empty houses, if you did not stop all these things, we would bomb houses where people lived. Do you understand_ This could be the ultimatum. But one cannot suddenly bomb houses where people live. We can listen ourselves, and Shamil Basayev can say this himself. Let me not tire our viewers and let us listen to him. [Basayev] I said earlier that I was against signing a peace accord. But this was used as a front which allowed Russia to pretend before the world community that everything was OK here, that we reached an agreement and concluded a peace accord. But one can sign a peace accord if both sides are happy with each other. So they played a political game. The fact that the Russians got ready for this in advance is proved by kidnappings of journalists, businessmen and even ordinary people. This fact speaks for itself because today all the people who were engaged in kidnappings in the republic, led by Mufti Akhmad Kadyrov, are taking the Russians' side. [Reporter] How did you feel about this, particularly about the kidnappings_ [Basayev] My attitude towards this was negative, very negative. As much as possible, we actively fight this. But then it became like an epidemic and we did not have any scope because of the recent war, because of the chaos. We could not even pay salaries to members of the police and the special services. We appealed to various states for help, at least to help us build prisons and provide equipment for them, to provide the most necessary things at least for our special services. Our deputy prime minister, Atgeriyev, even visited Great Britain to hold negotiations in this connection. But all this was only words. The majority of people, who were engaged in the most notorious cases of kidnapping of journalists and foreigners, they are all on the Russians' side today. This once again proves that this action was planned in advance. For instance, killings of ethnic Russians, the poorest people, who had nothing to give, they were simply killed. This took place in Shelkovskiy and Naurskiy Districts, in Groznyy. Competent and professional people worked there. [unclear sentence omitted] There are lots of facts, but no-one needs these facts today. Therefore we treat this calmly. Let the Russians say what they want, let them call us terrorists and their terrorist operation an anti-terrorist operation. We can answer simply with an Oriental saying - dogs are barking, but the caravan goes on. So, I also say that dogs are barking, but the jihad goes on. Allahu akbar! |
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Basayev surprised no culprit for bombings, given Russian torture methods [Reporter] The blasts in Moscow also played an important role. When apartment buildings were blown up in Moscow and other places. [Basayev] The main thing is that they took place at the right time. [Reporter] I would like to know your opinion about this. Up till now they have been saying that it was the Chechens who planted these bombs, but until now there has not been a single shred of evidence, I mean they have not caught the person who bombed those buildings. [Basayev] I am personally surprised that the Russians have not found any Chechen yet. Because according to the modern torture method, which is being used by the Russians in concentration camps, primarily against the Chechens, according to this torture method, I think that several thousand Chechens would confess that they planted these bombs, they would even confess that they killed Alexander the Great. I am surprised that no-one has confessed to this yet. [Reporter] Salman Raduyev assumed responsibility for all the explosions. What is your attitude towards Salman Raduyev_ [Basayev] I am very surprised that now when Salman is in captivity he does not confess to this. Because the Russians can force him, even against his will, as they are now using a smart method of torture, in particular, they are injecting prisoners of war with narcotic substances. They do not consider them to be prisoners. There is no law. If a person falls into their hands, he leaves them as an invalid. Therefore, it is very surprising that they have not yet found any Chechen connections in those cases. But on the other hand, they gave us a very good idea. We had problems with explosives. They gave us a good idea how to prepare explosives. Only stupid people cannot find on the Internet how to prepare explosives from hexogen and other substances. It is pointless for us to bother with fertilizers. We have lots of ammunition all over the republic, we even have bombs weighing many tonnes. [Unclear sentence omitted] Besides, now the Russians have run out of their bombs and they are dropping tatavirovka [as heard], which are used for clearing mine fields. There is pure plastic there [as heard], we have tonnes of ATS [as heard]. Besides, as for the Chechen connections in those explosions, I would say that we did not do anything like that in the previous war, although there was a genocide going on, there were difficulties, but we did not do this. We are not doing this in the current war either. Why would we need this_ Then, in practice, we had just entered Dagestan, and we went there normally, there were no problems. We left as winners both times, why would we need to blow anything up_ This is just a simple, elementary question. We would have gained nothing from that. If we would cause explosions today, then it would be understandable as they have destroyed a lot here and killed many people, caused difficulties, bitterness, it would be understandable, so to speak, but why then_ Especially as Russians have always made use of the blood of their citizens and used their people as cattle. And who will gain from blowing up of a couple of houses and killing a couple of hundred people, civilians, ordinary people_ And why would we do this_ Why would we carry out these explosions, we, Chechen mojahedin, who in both the previous war and this one defended those very Russians, ordinary civilians, both here in Chechnya and in Russia. We Chechens who, in the previous war and this one, gave these very soldiers to their mothers in their hundreds. Chechen casualties much lower in second war [Reporter] By the way, speaking of civilians, have more mojahedin or civilians died in this war_ [Basayev] The law of war anywhere is that civilians always suffer the most. According to calculations by - what do they call him - the notorious commentator [First Deputy Chief of Russia's General Staff Col-Gen Valeriy] Manilov - according to his calculations, around seven-and-a-half million of us, mojahedin, have died, or eight-and-a-half million, I do not remember exactly, but this many died. While, up to the present, according to our calculations, around 1,800 of our mojahedin have died in this war. During the previous war [1994-96], we had more than 2,900 or around 3,000 killed in two years of war and 15,000 wounded. In this war, the figure has not yet reached 2,000. Let us have 200,000. It will just make us happy because if there are 200,000 martyrs, if 200,000 people go to paradise, it is a great joy for us, especially as - here is our flag, the flag of the Majlis of Muslims of Ichkeria and Dagestan. There is an inscription at the bottom - ihda al-husnayin. It is a verse from the Koran, which, translated literally, means one of the two best, i.e. victory or paradise. So, we have modest demands, we do not want too much - either victory in this life or paradise in the next. That's why we are not losing in either case. [Presenter in studio] I should remind you again that today's guest in our studio is the president of the ANS independent media company, Vahid Mustafayev. Vahid muallim, why do you think Russia is so particularly concerned about the broadcasting of the Shamil Basayev interview in Azerbaijan_ |
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New generation in Azerbaijan ready to assert its independence from Russia [Mustafayev] Firstly, Shamil Basayev is also the guest of the studio today, not just me. As for your question, you know the Azerbaijani people lost its most valuable and wonderful representatives during the [Nagornyy Karabakh] war. You see how many heroes there are lying in Martyrs' Avenue, how many heroes lie in graves and how many graves of heroes there are throughout the whole of Azerbaijan's territory, in various districts. May they rest in peace. There is no doubt that, after the death of these hero martyrs, the national forces ready to fight for Azerbaijan decreased in this country. The Russian special services never stop and constantly continue their investigations and work in Azerbaijan. From this point of view, they see that new forces are appearing in Azerbaijan today, seven years after the war. Azerbaijan continues to be independent, it is really making efforts to write its name large in the world, and these efforts are already finding themselves reflected in life. Today a new generation has been formed in Azerbaijan, and this generation really loves its motherland and people and is ready to die for the sake of its motherland and people. We see these examples every day and meet these people. Undoubtedly, an interview like the one by Shamil Basayev strengthens and unites these forces, which can rise up to fight any opposing force for the sake of Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani people. I think that it is mainly from this point of view that they wanted to prevent some state structures broadcasting this. As I mentioned before, the main purpose is to destroy and divide all the Caucasus republics in order to seize power. The simplest and most advantageous way to seize power in the Caucasus is to take Azerbaijan. Russia sees that it is gradually losing nearly all its options in Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is growing stronger as an independent state. Our army is getting stronger. Our people's self-perception is evolving. Of course, these developments do not allow them to sit by calmly. Azerbaijan is the heart and brain of the Caucasus and it is a territory which carries out all other vital functions in a human body. Therefore fighting for the sake of Azerbaijan has not ended and it will continue. Interference and pressure on our state bodies, like that employed by Russia, will also continue. I think that we must be ready for more fighting and must not sacrifice our people and our representatives on the altar of not only Russia, but also any other country. Nobody should ever say to any Russian official - I assure you that I will investigate everything and punish them [the words Ramiz Mehdiyev, the head of the Azerbaijani Presidential Executive Staff, said in Moscow]. This cannot be the case. No people of the world will respect us if we do not respect ourselves. I believe that the Azerbaijani people have already started to respect themselves and I want to say with a sense of pride that the Azerbaijani people are no longer a people existing under Soviet rule. A new generation has come and this new generation will take Azerbaijan towards a brighter future. I believe Basayev's opinions on this would be very interesting. War is making faith of Chechen Muslims stronger [Reporter] Talking about the traitors, I would like to find out your opinion about [head of pro-Moscow Chechen administration, Akhmad] Kadyrov. What do you think Russia's aim was in appointing Kadyrov here_ [Basayev] Firstly, his surname is not Kadyrov, but Kafyrov [kaffir - infidel]. There was a sign there. There should be an "f " instead of "d". Secondly, the fact that he was appointed as the chief puppet says firstly that the Russians are actually running a risk. That is, they defied all the rules, completely changed all tactics and threw off all their masks, and brought all their agents to the front line, too. At the end of the last war, our special services had information that when we defeated the Federal Security Service in Groznyy in August, documents fell into our hands and Kadyrov's surname was there, with his nickname - Adam - next to it. [Reporter] Does the Sharia'h Court still exist in Chechnya or not_ [Basayev] Of course, it does. First, the Sharia'h Court was not just a whim, but was needed for our obligations before the most high. So, we cannot cancel what is not in our hands and what we do not have at our disposal. This refers to the Sharia'h Court. [Reporter] How are the fighters who distinguish themselves rewarded and traitors punished now_ [Basayev] We do not have particular fighter-traitors, as there is practically no one who was forcibly involved in the war or who was even called up for service as is the case in other states. All here are volunteers. Because jihad is voluntary work. There is a verse in the Koran which says that he who takes the direct path goes for himself, and he who is mistaken harms himself. Those who could not carry the burden of others were not punished until they rescued the messenger [sentence as heard]. According to this verse, he who wages a jihad is waging it for himself. No-one is waging it for me - I am talking about them [volunteers] now - they did not come to this war for my sake, they are not suffering difficulties and deprivations for my sake and risking their lives at the moment, they are doing this for the sake of God and for themselves. I say to every mojahed - you have not come to dig my kitchen garden or to work for me. You have come for the sake of God and for yourself. That's why we do not have problems. Firstly, we do not even have the notion of treason. And secondly, if any person simply goes home or somewhere else at any time, again we do not have any problems. It happens that people cannot bear the tension and difficulties. Some people leave. We are just sorry for them. Today I am saying once more that if we say that the war is advantageous, for us it is also advantageous. It is advantageous precisely for the Chechens, for the Muslims. It is advantageous because our faith is growing stronger in this war, our spirit is strengthening because we sin less in this war and because we avoided a civil war thanks to this Russian aggression. That's to say, we have gained a lot of benefits and the most important benefit is that we have the chance to wage jihad today on the path of God - may he be praised and exalted. This is the greatest benefit for us. The remaining idea that this benefits oligarchs is just talk. There is a Russian empire until the Russians themselves destroy this empire and until they destroy its main ideology - Russism, which is worse than fascism - they have lived on the blood of others for their entire lives and they will continue to live on the blood of others. If they come to Chechnya, tomorrow they will come to Azerbaijan, Georgia and Europe. They will not stop. [Presenter] Vahid muallim, the Prosecutor-General's Office also accuses ANS of propagandizing war. How can war be propagandized at all_ That is to say, we are interested in the technical method for doing this. |
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Azerbaijan should learn from Chechnya's resistance to Russia [Mustafayev] I do not know. I think that it would be more pertinent if you ask officials at the Prosecutor-General's Office about this. To be honest, I do not know the answer to this question. I just want to say that this is the work carried out by various special bodies, special services, they carry out propaganda, they put to sleep the Azerbaijani people. They tell them that they cannot wage war, that they can do nothing against Russia, Russia can smash Azerbaijan, they tell them to look how strong Russia is, how insidious it is. However, we see from the Shamil Basayev interview, and in general it becomes clear to us from the Chechen war, that several field commanders, each of them having, say, a maximum of 10,000 soldiers, can easily stand up to Russia, despite its image, and indeed wage war against it. You say that they accuse us of propagandizing war. Unconditionally, by showing Shamil Basayev, we are showing our commanders, our commanders of tomorrow, the military, that they should learn how this one man is resisting a country as large as Russia, and Russia cannot find or liquidate him. He causes trouble for the Russian army. And we are ten times bigger than the Chechen people, and we could do these things, too. Certainly, not against Russia, but against an enemy of Azerbaijan. We should learn a lesson from this. Our journalists' duty is to deliver this information so that the necessary bodies take this information and work and do something for themselves on its basis. That is to say, this interview that we are seeing does, on the one hand, dispel this fear. And Russia's special services were not interested in this fear being dispelled, do you understand_ Well, let us carry on listening, you are going to hear it now. |
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Chechens will fight until Caucasus is free, Russian empire collapses [Basayev] It is also part of the ideological time [as heard], what is convenient for the oligarchs, [words indistinct], Wahhabism, and so on and so forth. All this talk about a counter-terrorist operation, this is all done so it can be said that what is going on here is not a war of national liberation. [words indistinct] In these terms they are doing very well, as can be seen at once, they are good pupils of Goebbels. Goebbels once said that the more brazen a lie, the more plausible it is. And today, too, they lie throughout the world in the most brazen way and are trying to deceive everybody. [Reporter] What do you foresee as being the outcome of this war_ How would you prefer to settle this war_ [Basayev] My preference is not to settle this war. And for the moment I do not even want this war to stop, and we will not let it stop. We will not stop this war as long as the Russian empire remains intact and we will cause the collapse of the Russian empire, God willing, and we will fight until the Caucasus is free. [Reporter] Even if there will be a possibility for you to hold talks_ [Basayev] We will personally only hold talks strictly in accordance with Sharia'h law. We once officially told [Chechen President Aslan] Maskhadov this as well. Maskhadov shares the same view. For this reason, today I do not want talks. Back in spring I said, wait for my leg to heal. Until then you can withdraw your troops from here, but as soon as my leg heals, the war will not be stopped, God willing. We will fight with Russia until the Caucasus is free. [Reporter] That is to say, if the Russian troops leave Chechnya, you will keep on fighting - [Basayev interrupts] We will follow them. We will not stop until we free the Caucasus because we have no guarantees that the Russians won't come against us again when they grow strong again in a year or two. Azerbaijan should emulate Chechens' ability to find out what is going on [Presenter] Vahid muallim, Shamil Basayev has already expressed his attitude to his interview not being broadcast. What do you think about this_ [Mustafayev] I know about this. Shamil Basayev wrote in his address, please, do not touch Azerbaijani journalists because of me, I do not want them to have a headache because of me. He went on to say that, in general, he thought that this interview should be of more interest to the Azerbaijani people than the Chechen people. Of course, there is truth in what he says. For example, this should also be very interesting to us from the point of view of gathering information. How come they are aware of everything in their conditions - at war and completely isolated, and, moreover, when we are being intimidated because Russia is a very powerful country. How come they are aware of everything and can get information within several hours_ I admire this. This is very interesting indeed. We should also learn this from them. We should learn how they collect information and so quickly process it and respond or process it and carry out an operation. This should be very interesting. Let us listen and see that they even watch football matches. |
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Football is all Basayev watches on TV [Reporter] Have you had any chance to watch TV recently_ [Basayev] I have had the chance but have no desire. To be honest, I think that for the entire period of this war I have not watched TV for what amounts to even a week. I have watched five or six times. Currently I have a TV and we watch football using a battery. I like football. Football is what I watch, I do not watch anything else. [Reporter] What team do you support_ [Basayev] Today I supported Holland. [reporter] Did you watch the Galatasaray match_ [Basayev] I did. When we were all watching it, a mojahed of ours said that if the Turkish team had gone out onto the field with crosses round their necks [like Christians], they would have won then. They would have not had their player sent off and there would not been so much injustice against them. They were simply misjudged in the most brazen way. [Reporter] We just did not have a chance to see it yesterday. [Basayev] Yesterday the Turkish team lost 2-0. [Reporter] I just mean the Galatasaray match when it became - [Basayev interrupts] Ah, I did not watch Galatasaray. I watched the Turkish national team playing yesterday. They were simply misjudged in the 26th minute, the central defender, if memory serves me right, was sent off. [Presenter] Thoughts about the surrender of Shusha were voiced in previews aired on ANS. Maybe, individual Azerbaijani state officials took such steps as they were afraid Shamil Basayev might express some thoughts on this_ [Mustafayev] I understood your question. I do not believe that an Azerbaijani official could have feared Shamil Basayev's words about Karabakh. Not least because there is no official in Azerbaijan who went through the Karabakh war. That is to say, unlike other countries - I do not want to name them - our youth, patriotic sons who demonstrated their heroism in our war, are currently begging in the streets or working as taxi drivers or are doing other things. People who did not participate in and have no idea at all about the war, are working in state bodies and state structures. Thus, I cannot share your views. The clip that you are going to see now is a wonderful clip in which our correspondent, demonstrating his journalistic craft, asks Shamil Basayev about Karabakh having been lost by Azerbaijan. And Shamil Basayev interrupts him to say that Azerbaijan has not lost this war yet and - I do not want to give everything away - and in this way he once again demonstrates his respect towards the Azerbaijani people, the Azerbaijani mojahedin, Azerbaijani patriots, of whom there are many in Azerbaijan today, and the new generation has brought new ones. Let us check it out, too, please. |
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Basayev praises Azerbaijani rank-and-file in Karabakh, criticizes officers [Reporter] I would like to switch to questions about Azerbaijan, mutual relations with Azerbaijan and apart from that, a concrete question about Nagornyy Karabakh. As is known, you visited Azerbaijan several times in 1992 and took an active part in hostilities for the liberation of Nagornyy Karabakh. Why do you think Azerbaijan lost the war to the Armenians_ [Basayev] I don't know who says that Azerbaijan lost. [Reporter] Well, the real situation now is that 20 per cent of Azerbaijani territory has been occupied. [Basayev] Let even 100 per cent of Azerbaijani territory be occupied, you would not be satisfied, would you_ [Reporter] Of course, we would not be satisfied. [Basayev] Then you don't have to say that someone lost. It is a temporary success, temporary things are not constant. [Reporter] I mean the hostilities that were going on there, i.e. Azerbaijan unfortunately lost battles. What was the reason_ [Basayev] First, what I saw there, and many of my guys from one battalion fought there and we nearly had an officer corps at that time. Other guys saw it and we analysed all this. There were several reasons there. First it was that this was an artificially-unleashed conflict. First of all, it was unleashed by Russia. Because when they left, they knew they must leave, and when they left they deliberately fanned the flames of this conflict in advance to have a chance to influence or control the situation both in Armenia and Azerbaijan. The Russians helped the Armenians very much. Secondly, the Armenians were more prepared and thirdly, what I saw or what somehow greatly surprised me was the enthusiasm and patriotism of the rank-and-file of the Azerbaijani army, though the army, we can say, was a relative thing because it was just being created at the time, and the apathy and mood of time-serving amongst the officer corps. Many commanders I met at the time, battalion commanders, behaved like petty princes. One could think that he was a local king. I mean there was a big mess. [Reporter] At that time, as is known, there was talk that Chechen mojahedin had come to help the Azerbaijani national army and an agreement was reached that the mojahedin were helping to liberate Nagornyy Karabakh in return for trophies they were capturing from the Armenians. This agreement allegedly existed. After that, for some other reasons, the Chechens left Azerbaijan. What was the reason_ Can you tell us what happened there_ [Basayev] To be honest, for example, I led my own mojahedin out of Azerbaijan. We came there not for trophies, but for Jihad and to help for the sake of God. But when we saw the situation, there was no sign of Jihad. There was almost arbitrariness. We could not even [sentence as heard]. There were rare officers, especially among the top leadership, whom you could trust. I can say that some sectors were even sold. In this situation, the Chechen mojahedin were first allowed to take these trophies. But then they started looking at this in a somewhat different way. I remember talking to a brigade commander. He told me directly we cannot do it now, we have been banned from taking weapons, ammunition and trophies away. I asked what do you think is better for you - if the Armenians have these weapons and use them against you or if we take them to Chechnya_ He said of course it would be better if you take them to Chechnya. Then what is the matter_ No. This was one of the htmlects. The main reason was that the attitude towards the Chechens changed there. Propaganda was also working very well. Some of the top leadership became fearful for its own interests. They created the atmosphere that it was something like a pointless job and we just did not see any Jihad. I saw a lot, especially rank-and-file Azerbaijani mojahedin, who supported their people and state, as it were, body and soul, who did not spare their life and fell on the battlefield. But there was no management and particularly often, when great casualties were sustained because of the lack of talent and stupidity of the officers, simply because of the stupidity of commanders, no commander was punished. Any commander could just send his people and no-one had any responsibility and no-one was responsible. The life of ordinary soldiers was not valued at all. |
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Fall of Shusha due to lack of leadership Shusha was also surrendered purely because there was no discipline and leadership. No-one was responsible for anything again. This is the reason. There was the strength and potential. There were four mojahedin and there were 11 Azerbaijanis along with them. Almost everyone left, but 15 people held out in defence on their own for one and half days - 15 men. And a 2,800-strong garrison left everything and ran away. That's it. At that time, if someone escaped the battlefield with armoured hardware, he was a hero because many left the hardware as well. Another thing that surprised us was that all those retreating went up to Baku. It was such a strange situation . Today, the people are simply blamed for that, meaning that the Azerbaijanis don't want to fight, they cannot do this, that or the other. It is also propaganda against the people. The Azerbaijanis can fight, I saw it there, and there were a lot of mojahedin. But there was no management, no specific people who could assume responsibility and no specific leaders. You know there was everything, but it was all abandoned to its fate like that. For this reason, both the people and everyone suffered. [Reporter] I want to apologize, but if possible, I want to insist on my question about Shusha. Can you tell us_ [Basayev] No, I cannot tell you. [Reporter] At present, everyone in Azerbaijan knows that in reality Shusha was betrayed. It was surrendered. It is necessary for us and for history. [Basayev] Three of my mojahedin who defended Shusha are still alive. If there is a chance for you to meet them, they can tell you about that. Shusha was just abandoned. About 700 Armenians launched an offensive and it was just a veneer. With such a strong garrison and so many weapons, especially as Shusha itself is in a strategically significant position,one hundred men can hold it for a year easily. There was no organization. Today we can take one specific general or minister, we can just take them and say you betrayed it, you took it, you sold it. It is all talk. There was no single management. No-one was responsible for anything. If a couple of dozen officers had been shot - I was greatly surprised that soldiers were sent to fight so stupidly - there would have been a result. What greatly surprised me was that when we once came to Baku in July, to flying squad brigade 777, there was a new intake of recruits and everywhere was crammed with soldiers, and they were being trained to march for days. A lot became clear there with all this. We talked to officers. These people knew the formation, turn right or turn left. Why should they be trained to march like that as if they were in front of the Lenin Mausoleum_ Wouldn't it have been better to use this time for tactics, to teach them how to handle weapons or especially to let them practice shooting_ And another minor detail, they had different uniforms. There was a rocky picture, rocky colour - dark or dark grey, it looked very good. In this uniform, they just sent a battalion to fight in this uniform near Agdam once. There was yellow grass around and they were dressed in grey. Dark grey. They were clearly visible as a target. I mean that things like this were not taken into consideration. We analysed these things at one time. There were many errors by the commanders. And now the general blame is laid on the people, on the army, on everyone. And I say once again - the army is good, excellent, there were mojahedin, there were many talented officers. But they were at a low level, while at the top there were those who graduated from [military] academies in Russia, and we know how people become generals there. It is a pity. There were and still are great possibilities. But certain work, primarily moral and educational work, is not being carried out. That's why there are such problems now. Russia has no proof Azerbaijan aiding Chechnya [Presenter in studio] Vahid muallim, the Russian mass media, both in the first Chechen war [in1994-96] and in the current second Chechen war have accused Azerbaijan of allegedly rendering financial and technical assistance to the Chechens. Maybe our patriotic officials were scared that Shamil Basayev had said something excessive. [Mustafayev] First, Azerbaijan is not rendering financial and technical assistance to the Chechen mojahedin. Therefore, officials have nothing to fear. But I can agree with you that some officials are unaware of such things and, yes, they could be scared. Because you know what interests them. As for Azerbaijan's assistance to Russia [as heard, presumably Chechnya], you know, our president, Mr Heydar Aliyev, has repeatedly, laconically and skilfully answered those raising these issues. And do remember that Russia is a state which would have put forward any facts about any incident if it had got its hands on them. They have no facts because Azerbaijan is not doing this. |
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Russia's aim in stopping interview to hide shame of bribes Secondly, the commander of Russia's Border Troops, [Konstantin] Totskiy has repeatedly stated that such assistance certainly is not being rendered to Chechnya by Azerbaijan. And the main thing is that Russia attempted to prevent the broadcast of our interviews with Shamil Basayev and Maskhadov because these interviews have once more proved to the whole world that, on the contrary, Azerbaijan does not interfere in Russia's internal affairs. Simply, Russia's internal affairs are in such a state that everything can be settled there by bribery and money. They have said recently that they allegedly took our tapes, that they took the tape with Aslan Maskhadov's interview. This is a lie. They did not take any of our tapes. They took their bribe and let our guys [journalists] in. They took their bribe and talked with Chechens by radio saying that "correspondents are coming from Azerbaijan to see you, please meet them". And following all this, they received 720 dollars. I mean, it is a very simple matter. And Russia's accusations against Azerbaijan are primarily aimed at vindicating the Federal Security Service, that Putin formerly headed, and are a new method of exerting pressure on Azerbaijan. This is very simple. Therefore, you know, please do not speak about our officials. Let's listen to Basayev. This is more interesting. Ordinary Muslims fund the Chechen war effort [Basayev] Or for example, many people today are taking an interest in where we are getting funds, they are making up stories that people ranging from [Usamah] bin Ladin to [US President Bill] Clinton are helping us. Ordinary Muslims, ordinary people are helping us. Not a single government in the world is helping us. I would like to mention a couple of cases in particular because they are very interesting. An eight-year-old girl from Saudi Arabia brought her doll to sell at auction when they were collecting money in school. The doll costs 10 dinars. She brought the doll, the most precious thing to an eight-year-old girl, to sell it and send money for the jihad. And a businessman bought the doll for 1,000 dinars and she sent this money and also a letter. Or for example, an old woman from Qatar personally sent me 2,700 dollars with a request to arm a mojahed using this money. If I arm a mojahed using this money, the old woman will receive the same reward that God gives him for his fighting. Therefore, she equips him fully. And I managed to fully equip three mojahedin for this money. This money was enough to fully equip them. Students from the USA and England sent us a long letter and money. Some sent one dollar, some sent a thousand dollars. It varies. But we are not carrying out a special campaign to collect money because we do not have a huge amount of expenditure, because the Russians are giving us practically everything we need and they do this free of charge. Hit them slightly on the head and they immediately leave everything. Most arms and ammunition we have were captured. We obtain them in battle. Even our uniforms are Russian, we buy them and arms from the Russians. Things that we cannot take from them by force, we buy. And today we have no special expenditure as, inshallah, we have no financial or other problems. God says in the Koran that he will not abandon his servants who are keeping to his path. Inshallah, his grace will not leave us today. And we trust only in his grace today. We do not care today that Russia has 150 million and they have a million-strong army. This is not a force for us, because our force has greater strength, we are stronger because we have God's grace. The only thing that we are scared of is losing God's grace. We fear only this. [Correspondent] What is written on your epaulettes_ [Basayev] It says there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger. [Presenter in studio] Vahid muallim, Basayev therefore said where and from whom they, the mojahedin, are receiving assistance. [Mustafayev] Yes. [Presenter] And what would you like to say finally_ |
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Only one Azeri official spoke against broadcast ban [Mustafayev] What would I like to say finally_ Nothing. I mean, you now understand why the Russian special services wanted to ban the broadcasting of these programmes, sorry, this programme. One more question arises. Why did some officials in the Azerbaijani Republic not want to watch it_ Why, in wanting to ban this programme, did some officials deny there was pressure from Russia_ Why did Ali Hasanov find the strength to say this while others could not_ I would like all individuals who represent our state to be motivated by the principles of our national interests, patriotism. We need this very much. Maybe not the current generation, but the next generation needs this very much. Unfortunately, we show little respect for ourselves today. Let's see what Basayev says about this. [Basayev] We are very grateful to the Azerbaijani people. We are very grateful for the sympathy that they show to us. And we are very grateful to other Muslims of the world. [Mustafayev] That's it. Basayev says "thank you very much" to the Azerbaijani people for their sympathy, i.e. for their love and because the Azerbaijani people do not regard the Chechen people as terrorists today. I think that this interview will cause some changes in the minds of the Azerbaijani people. But, this is not the end. I invite our viewers, only ANS viewers, to the "Frank Conversation" programme at 2200 on Friday [1700 gmt 21st July]. You will be able to see the interview with Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov in this programme, or it would be more accurate to say you will be able to watch a "Frank Conversation". And finally, I would like to say a few words to sum up our conversation today. And I would like to address these few words to all of our viewers. To be more accurate, these words are not mine, but were said by the famous [9th century] Azeri military leader Babek. He said "one should not be scared of anyone or anything because a brave man dies once while a coward dies every day." Let's be brave. [Presenter] Thank you, Vahid muallim. I would like to recall that this was a point of view of Vahid Mustafayev, the president of the ANS Independent Broadcasting Company. [Mustafayev] One main thing remains. I would like to say that as you can see, we pulled a fast one, we broadcast the whole programme. People have watched the whole interview with Basayev and nothing has changed. There are some patriotic guys in BakGES [Baku electricity supply company]. [Presenter] Thank you. Source: ANS TV, Baku, in Azeri 1630 gmt 19 Jul 00 BBC Mon TCU 200700 ad/at/ek/nm/ea/la/vz/sa/bk
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